Shun Ishiwaka × Tomoaki Baba: A Journey Through Time with Childhood Friends

“Shun Is the Reason I’m Still a Musician: Music Is the Only Thing That Ever Frustrated Me” (Baba)

Do you two often hang out like this, just drinking and chatting?

Baba： Not really. After gigs, we’re usually with other friends. The last time we had drinks just the two of us was around May of last year. Shun randomly messaged me, saying, ‘Hey, I’m nearby, are you free?’ So we ended up grabbing drinks for a couple of hours, right?

Ishiwaka: Yeah, I was feeling a bit lonely that day [laughs].

Baba： We all go through that sometimes [laughs].

Ishiwaka: I recall us having quite a passionate discussion. We were contemplating our next steps. We’ve matured as adults, but do we actually have a vision for what lies ahead?

That sounds like a serious topic.

Baba： When it’s just the two of us, those are the kinds of conversations we tend to have. It might be because we’re both busy, and those moments are really the only times we can dive into serious discussions.

Ishiwaka: We’ve been into jazz since childhood, which gives us a strong bond. But after high school, Tomoaki went to the U.S., while I remained active in Japan. We started collaborating again after he returned, but since we’re in different scenes, there’s always this sense of checking in on each other when we meet.

You both met at a jazz school in Hokkaido when you were nine. Did you have any awareness of each other back then?

Ishiwaka： Absolutely. The jazz school was quite large—about 40 students in the elementary division alone. Tomoaki was a soloist, taking the lead in the band and playing saxophone at the front. There were only a few who could play standout solos, and he was definitely one of them.

Baba: Was I playing well?

Ishiwaka: Absolutely, you were great. As a drummer, I didn’t stand at the front, but I always thought the essence of jazz lies in how a drummer responds to the improvisations of others and creates movement in the space. It was really enjoyable to play with Tomoaki in that context.

Baba： Isn’t it crazy that we were feeling those things back in elementary school? [laughs] I had no idea what the role of a drummer was at that time. Shun’s playing was incredible, but his knowledge was also impressive. He was like a music encyclopedia. He would say, “Have you heard this? It’s amazing!” and introduce me to all kinds of CDs. It was Shun who first introduced me to the debut work of Robert Glasper, and thanks to him, my knowledge of music really expanded.

Ishiwaka: When I was listening to real-time jazz, I didn’t have many friends around who could talk about music. So, I was looking for people with whom I could share knowledge and play together. One of those people was Tomoaki.

Baba： When we had sessions at the jazz school, Shun was always the one bringing in ideas, saying, “How about this arrangement?” He was making a lot of musical suggestions even back then, and I think that led to projects like Answer to Remember.

You’ve influenced each other since childhood.

Baba： The reason I’m still pursuing music is because of Shun. I didn’t come from a musical family, and I never really wanted to be a musician. I was also into swimming and had an interest in medicine. I didn’t dislike studying, and I had various things I wanted to do. But with music, I felt a sense of frustration. I wanted more opportunities and wanted to improve. I never felt that way while swimming. But when I met Shun at the jazz school, for the first time I thought, “I don’t want to lose to him!” If I hadn’t met Shun, I might have become a doctor by now. After a surgery, I might have been listening to Shun’s new work and thought, “He’s doing something really complex lately” [laughs].

Shun Ishiwaka’s Decision Against Moving to the US: Contemplating “Our Identity”

You were both close friends and rivals.

Baba： When I entered high school, Shun had already moved to Tokyo and started performing with famous players like Akira Sakata. I watched that with a sense of envy. He was still a dear friend, but I couldn’t help feeling a bit envious as well. However, after I moved to the U.S. for college, those feelings faded, and I was able to see things more objectively.

Ishiwaka: I see. I thought it was amazing that Tomoaki was performing in America. He was collaborating with players I admired and participating in the same festivals and events. There was a time when I really wanted to pursue opportunities in the U.S. too.

Why didn’t you go to the U.S.?

Baba： I always thought you should come over.

Ishiwaka：I had many opportunities to perform and engage with contemporary music at university (Tokyo University of the Arts). There were a lot of players aiming for orchestral careers or competing in competitions, but for me, the feelings and excitement I experienced while engaging with contemporary music were comfortable and enjoyable. It felt like a music that reflected my background directly and was very immediate. Learning about the rich history of contemporary music over the past 60 years, hearing about the real transmission from my seniors and teachers was also thrilling. I felt inspired when performing works by composers like Toru Takemitsu and other Asian composers, and every time I participated in the world premiere of a new piece, I thought, “As a performer, this is what I should be doing.”

When performing classical and jazz music from abroad, how do you incorporate your identity and uniqueness as a Japanese person? That’s a significant question.

Ishiwaka: I was thinking along those lines, so at that time, I felt somewhat distant from America. I was interested in the jazz scene happening in real-time in New York and still loved it, though.

Baba： This is the first time I’m learning why Shun stayed in Japan. While I was active in the U.S., I was also pondering, “What does it mean to be Japanese?” Jazz, being a music that originated from Africa and America, offered many opportunities to study history and culture through performing with people of various backgrounds. As I went to America and had conversations with them, I realized that I didn’t know much about Japanese culture. Musicians like Akira Sakata and Tiger Okoshi, who have spent a long time in the U.S., are well-versed in American culture as well as Japanese culture, and they integrate both into their own expression. I think there’s been an increase in jazz musicians doing similar things recently. Musicians like Avishai Cohen and Tigran Hamasyan are fusing region-specific music with jazz and other formats. I’ve thought a lot about how to respect both Black and White cultures while also honoring Japanese culture in jazz.

So the two of you were thinking about the same thing in different places. Baba-san made his debut as a member of J-Squad, a band of Japanese musicians living in New York. Ishiwaka-san, in addition to his solo activities, is active in various bands such as CRCK/LCKS and Mononkuru.

Baba: When I was in America, I followed the Japanese scene through Shun’s Facebook, learning about interesting new people emerging in Japan. I got to know new talents like Fumitake Ezaki (WONK), Taishi Nukada (Tokyo Shiokoji), and Daiki Tsuneta (King Gnu) through Shun, and I found it fascinating to watch a new music scene develop in Japan.

Ishiwaka: At that time, I wondered why there were so many interesting musicians in Japan, yet their music wasn’t spreading globally. I thought we needed to create a strong scene in Tokyo for that to happen, and I discussed this almost every day with my seniors and peers. Everyone was very passionate and driven back then.

Pandemic Influence on Live Shows: Musicians and Tech Synergy

Eventually, as Tokyo’s new generation jazz scene began to attract attention, Baba returned to Japan to pursue his music career. The animated film ‘BLUE GIANT,’ in which Ishiwaka and Baba performed together, symbolizes the rising momentum of the jazz scene. Now, both artists have released new works around the same time, and each is a groundbreaking piece that breaks away from traditional jazz imagery. Baba also participated in Answer to Remember II, led by Ishiwaka’s unit, alongside a diverse lineup of musicians.

Baba： The music of Answer to Remember is so quintessentially Shun! The track I participated in, “Sapporo Okinawa,” is especially reflective of that. The way the chords and melodies are crafted really feels like Shun. What’s different now is the approach to sound production; previously, it was more about fitting into a jazz format, but this time it’s about what sounds to add or subtract, how to structure the length of the tracks, and while maintaining the essence of jazz, the production is intricately crafted. I think this influence comes from track-making and pop music, and it’s something Shun has developed through his work across various genres.

Jazz is often associated with live performances and improvisation, but Answer to Remember II bases itself on sessions while creating a modern sound through meticulous sound design.

Ishiwaka： For example, in terms of drums, there are so many sounds in a single track that live drums alone can’t support it. So, we overlay programmed elements onto the live-recorded drums. Utilizing technology in that way is something we didn’t do in the previous work. Since releasing the last album, the pandemic hit, and live performances came to a halt, which led to more recording sessions. Because of that, I gained knowledge about technology and was able to experiment with it in this album.

Baba: Shun is a drummer, but he has a holistic view of the entire piece. He possesses the perspectives of a performer, a composer, and a producer. People with such a combination are surprisingly rare. I think it’s very meaningful for a drummer to release an album like this.

It certainly doesn’t feel like a typical drummer’s album. On the other hand, your new work, ELECTRIC RIDER, also has a groundbreaking sound.

Baba： This time, I approached it with the mindset of “I’m not going to create a typical ‘jazz’ album.” Like Shun, during the pandemic when live performances came to a halt, I faced technology head-on. I upgraded my computer and bought music production software called Ableton, and I started self-learning how to create music using a computer. I ended up posting a new track on Instagram every week.

Baba: BIGYUKI listened to that, and when we had a barbecue together in NY, he said, “I heard your Instagram tracks, and they’re really good.” I met Yuki when I was 15, and later we hung out in NY. I’ve always been a fan of his music and wanted to collaborate with him, so when I decided to release a new project, I reached out to Yuki and invited him to come on board as a producer. I thought it would be challenging to bring my vision to life on my own when it came to using synthesizers and overdubs. I believed that combining Yuki’s musicality with my own could lead to something interesting. We talked about wanting to create an album that wasn’t just an acoustic performance with solos, but rather a well-crafted piece in terms of sound and production.