Rikiya Imaizumi and Ryutaro Ninomiya: closer to real emotions in substantial films

Ninomiya’s observation that surprises Imaizumi

– Let’s begin with Imaizumi. How did you find Ninomiya’s “DREAMING IN BETWEEN”?

Imaizumi: It was great. His independent film and theatrical debut directorial effort “Sweating the Small Stuff” (2017) starred Ninomiya himself, but like his previous film “Minori, On The Brink” (2019), this film doesn’t feature the man himself. But just by watching the first few minutes of the film, you can already tell that it’s a Ryutaro Ninomiya film. What makes it different from other directors? I can feel the unique atmosphere and tension that only Ninomiya can convey. To be honest, I am jealous of him.

– Ninomiya’s acting in Imaizumi’s “Sad Tea” in 2013 was remarkable.

Imaizumi: When was the first time we met?

Ninomiya: It was 2010. That was when I took an acting course at ENBU Seminar. At that time, you were working in the office.

Imaizumi: I was an office worker at ENBU for three years starting in 2007, and in 2010 my first commercial feature film called “TAMA no Eiga” was released, but I was still working as an office worker. Ninomiya directed a short film called “I Want You to Enjoy It” while I was at ENBU. It was very interesting.

– And that led to “Sad Tea.”

Imaizumi: Ninomiya was an assistant director in the production department for “Sad Tea” initially. The chief assistant director was Wataru Hiranami (a Japanese film director whose representative works include “Amnesiac Love”), and Ninomiya was working under him.

He said that I offered Ninomiya a part in the film at that site. At that time, for some reason the image of “I want Ninomiya to appear in a movie wearing overalls” came to my mind. That scene became a scene that sort of embodied “lonely tea = sad tea. Was that a personal item?

Ninomiya: It was my personal item, but I never wore it once because it was tacky and didn’t fit me well.

Everyone: [Laughs].

Ninomiya: It was a mistake to buy it, but I thought, “I never thought I would wear it in a movie.

Imaizumi: At the time, Ninomiya usually had the air of a “teased character” among his friends. So when I saw “The Charm of Others” (2012), which won the runner-up prize at the PFF Awards, I was horrified.

Ninomiya directed and acted in that film by himself. In that film, Ninomiya plays a character who treats himself as a “teased character,” or rather as a bad clown, while calmly observing the ridiculousness of the men around him. On the surface she is being teased, but in reality she is objectively observing the ecology of the people who tease her, which I found scary.

– “The Charm of Others” was a great comedy that showed Ninomiya’s sharp observation of human beings.

Imaizumi: I’m being thought of this way too!” And. I feel as if Ninomiya was calmly observing me and confronting me.

Ninomiya: No, no, no!　Not at all!

Imaizumi’s “pausing method” that influences Ninomiya

– So, Ninomiya, what do you like about Imaizumi’s films?

Ninomiya: Well, this is a really difficult question.

Imaizumi: I don’t think so (laughs).

Ninomiya: That’s not true (laughs). From the beginning, you consistently depicted people from your own unique perspective, and I think that is something that only Mr. Imaizumi could do.

One thing I remember is that when I first met Mr. Imaizumi, he told me that what was important to him as a director was to make films that only he could make. After hearing those words, I began to think about that all the time.

– That is a very important lesson.

Ninomiya: That’s right. From there, Mr. Imaizumi went on to make many films, but I think what he always carefully depicts is the small changes in human relationships. Also, I think it is important to make people laugh. It is really wonderful to be able to laugh, isn’t it? I have seen many people become happy by watching your films.

In relation to the “laughability” of your films, you have specifically influenced me to write “pause” in your scripts, which I also use in my films.

– What do you mean by that?

Imaizumi: For example, when I want to make a pause in the dialogue between me and Ninomiya, I usually write something like “………” for Imaizumi, “………” for Ninomiya, and so on. But in my films, there are too many pauses. But in my films, there are too many pauses. So I started to write “pause” in scripts instead of “………” at some point.

Ninomiya: The “Sad Tea” script already says “pause.” The other day, when a staff member with experience in the Imaizumi group read my script, he said, “Huh? (laughs). He said, “It looks like Imaizumi’s scripts,” to which I replied, “I’m copying him.”

Imaizumi: However, if I am correct, I was influenced by director Nobuhiro Yamashita. In the pamphlet of “Ramblers” (2003), there was a script written jointly by Kosuke Mukai and Yamashita, and it was written as “………” and “…… The amount of “” and “…” was outrageous (laughs). I was shocked at how many times “………” and “………” went back and forth! I was shocked, and at first I imitated that way of writing. But then I thought, why don’t I just write “pause”?

– It’s an interesting story of how the three link one another. Speaking of pausing, “The Charm of Others” was still built on dialogue. However, “Sweating the Small Stuff” implemented a sudden bold pause between the lines.

Ninomiya: That’s right. “The Charm of Others.” There was a four-year gap between that and the first book, and I was really depressed then. I couldn’t write at all. I didn’t even try to write. I felt strongly that I had to put everything I had up to that point into “Sweating the Small Stuff,” which I could finally step into.

Imaizumi finds compelling irritation in Ninomiya’s films

Imaizumi: I think that Ninomiya’s invention, which was consistent from “The Charm of Others” to “Minori, On The Brink,” is that “the protagonist is grumpy. The protagonist is irritated and walks silently. There is an intensity of mystery, or rather tension and attraction, in a shot that is just that.

I imagined that perhaps Takeshi Kitano’s earlier films such as “Violent Cop” (1989) and “Sonatine” (1993) were the inspiration for this film, but I think it is basically a reflection of Ninomiya’s own anger at the unreasonableness of the world and the inability to get by in a reasonable manner. I think it is a reflection of his anger at the unreasonableness of the world and the inability to get by.

Ninomiya: I don’t know about that. I think it is important to make it as meaningful as possible.

Imaizumi: In relation to what Ninomiya said earlier about “something only I can make,” I feel that unless the director takes as his subject matter the questions that he himself wonders about in his daily life and things that cannot be easily answered, the film will inevitably end up smelling fake and “made-up.

When I watch Ninomiya’s films, I always feel a certain earnestness or something that comes from inside him. For example, in “Sweating the Small Stuff,” the scene where the main character, played by Ninomiya himself, is talking with his mother while eating seafood curry, I found myself crying for no reason. It is true that there are people who can weave a story even if it is not based on their own experiences. However, I don’t think it is possible to depict such a rich time unless it is a form that brings out emotions that the person knows, or something that is truly “inside” him or her.

– That film gave me the impression that the actual experience lifted into a film story.

Imaizumi: Recently, I happened to have a chance to watch a TV talk show featuring comedy duo Audrey’s Masayasu Wakabayashi, Nankai Candies’ Ryota Yamasato, and writer Kanako Nishi. In that episode, Nishi said to Wakabayashi and Yamasato, “You two are still angry all the time, aren’t you? Anger” takes a lot of energy, and as we grow older, we usually soften up and say, “Oh well,” but the two are still seriously pissed off at the world. They are surprised that the power of their anger has not diminished.

I feel the same way about Ninomiya. Of course, Ninomiya usually does not reveal his anger openly, but rather he is very low-key and gentle. But in the film, I feel that his inner anger quietly erupts in the form of that “grumpy protagonist.

Ninomiya: It’s true that my usual self is a person who is always petulant like this (laughs), but I wanted to put into the script what I usually don’t or can’t put out.

Imaizumi: But the main character in “DREAMING IN BETWEEN,” is different from your previous works, isn’t it? Even though the story is the same, it has a gentle touch. That is the part where I thought the way of making the film changed a little.

Avoiding unfamiliar themes, crafting films with own experience

– The protagonist of “DREAMING IN BETWEEN” (played by Ken Mitsuishi) is a high school vice principal in Kitakyushu, waiting for his forthcoming retirement. I heard Ninomiya’s father was the model of this character, and you already had Mitsuishi in mind even when writing this story?

Ninomiya: Mr. Mitsuishi has always been my favorite actor. From the very beginning of writing the script, I had decided that Mr. Mitsuishi would play the leading role.

When I thought about where to set the film with Mr. Mitsuishi in the lead role, I could not think of anywhere else but his hometown, Kitakyushu City in Fukuoka Prefecture. I also incorporated his memories that I heard from Mr. Mitsuishi into the script. I also incorporated the character of my own father, who was a teacher at a regular high school, as a setting for the story.

Imaizumi: He played the role of your father in “I Want You to Have Fun” and “Sweating the Small Stuff,” right?

Ninomiya: Yes. When I thought about how I could make the story of Shuhei, a man nearing his 60th birthday, into something that I could really feel and portray, I thought the best way to do it was to bring in my own father. I thought that would lead to a film that only I could make, and I could always interview him (laughs). From there, I wanted to depict the relationship with the family and the interaction with the young students.

Imaizumi: I see. I often get my ideas for the characters from people around me whom I know very well. For example, if I draw a school teacher without knowing him or her well, I tend to make him or her seem more dramatic than he or she really is. There is a possibility of making it look like an emotional human drama set in a regular high school. Like Yoji Yamada’s “School. I love that movie (laughs).

– When writing scripts, having someone close in mind solidifies your own story. The protagonist faces his life as his memory slowly fades away. This story came across as a modern version of Akira Kurosawa’s 1952 film “Living.”

Ninomiya: I have received several suggestions that I might have referenced “Living.” I wasn’t aware of it at all, so when I was told, I thought, “I see.

Imaizumi: The main character in “Living” confronts the issues of his life, death, and the time he has left after he gets stomach cancer. But Shuhei in “DREAMING IN BETWEEN” is ambiguous about the extent to which he is aware of his symptoms. He tries to repair his relationship with his family, but neither his wife Akiko (Maki Sakai) nor his daughter Yuma (Haruka Kudo) talk to him properly. Rather, at the beginning of the film, I think only my own father, who is in a nursing home, was able to listen to me in a way.

Ninomiya: I didn’t make any definite depiction of illness in the film, partly because I wanted to make it a “film about life” rather than focusing on illness. I also thought that forgetting is not only scary, but also a relief to forget.

Shuhei eats out at the restaurant where his former student Minami Hiraga (Minoru Yoshimoto) works, without realizing it. Shuhei realizes this, takes out his wallet, and then does what he does. That part was the first part I cherished in the script of this film.

Actor Ninomiya’s belief in acting

– Miyu Yoshimoto played a significant role, too. She is what Imaizumi described as a “grumpy protagonist.” She is reminiscent of Minori from another Ninomiya’s film, “Minori, On The Brink.”

Imaizumi: It’s a reversal from your usual Ninomiya works. In the past, the main character was frustrated, but in this work, everyone is frustrated with Shuhei, but Shuhei doesn’t know why. And he forgets more and more. This is new for a Ninomiya work! And it could be a story where the main character stands out in this structure.

Only I can identify with Ishida, a former classmate of the bike shop owner played by Yutaka Matsushige. There’s a different atmosphere around him than around his family and school. Just having Mitsuishi-san and Matsushige-san in the same frame would be enough to scare me as a director.

Ninomiya: That’s right. Until now, I have usually made films with people my age, so this was the first time I worked with veteran actors who are seasoned professionals with a hundred years of experience. I was nervous, but I learned a lot.

Imaizumi: Ninomiya is also active as an actor, so I am wondering where you, as a director, give the OK line for a play.

Ninomiya: That decision is just a sense of whether it is good or bad for the film, but sometimes it takes me a long time from the time I make a cut to the time I give the OK or retake. Hiranami-san said to me, “I have never seen a director like you before” (laughs).

Imaizumi: There is a saying in a book on filmmaking that if there are 100 filmmakers, there are 100 different ways to direct a film. But there is one thing that a director should never do. That is to be silent after the cut.

Everyone: (Laughs).

Imaizumi: It makes everyone feel uneasy. So after I make a cut, if I can’t make an immediate decision, I immediately say, “I’m sorry, I’ll think about it! and then I think about it.

Ninomiya: I always say, “Please wait a moment! (laughs).

– As an actor, Ninomiya took part in several films such as “Underdog,” “A Family,” and Netflix’s “The Naked Director” or “The Journalist.” Are there differences between directing your film and acting in someone’s films?

Ninomiya: Yes, it does. It changes completely. When I am acting, I think of it as “contributing.

Imaizumi: As an actor, you earn money in other fields, and then you make “auteur films” in your own field, right? Like, “I’m going to work part-time on a commercial film today.” Just kidding (laughs).

Ninomiya: That’s not true at all! What’s with that tiresome-looking guy? Give me a break (laughs).

Ryutaro Ninomiya

Ryutaro Ninomiya is a film director, screenwriter, and actor. 2012, his first feature film, “The Charm of Others” won the Runner-up Grand Prix at the 34th Pia Film Festival and was well received at international film festivals. 2017, his second feature film, “Sweating the Small Stuff,” which he directed and starred in, was the only Japanese film selected in the feature film category at the 70th Locarno International Film Festival. In 2019, his third feature film, “Minori, On The Brink” will be released. In 2023, his commercial debut film “DREAMING IN BETWEEN” will be selected for the ACID (Association for the Promotion of Independent Cinema) at the 76th Cannes International Film Festival.

Rikiya Imaizumi

Born in Fukushima Prefecture in 1981, Rikiya Imaizumi is a film director. He made his commercial film debut in 2010 with “Tama no Eiga.” Since then, he has released a series of high-profile films, including “Sad Tea” (2014), “Same Old, Same Old” (2017), “Just Only Love” (2019), “Over the Town” (2021), and “By the Window” (2022). His latest film, “Undercurrent,” will be released on October 6, 2023.