Despair and Hope: A Dialogue Between Shing02 and Shin Kokawa in a Time of Shifting Values

Contemplating The Power of Music with Shing02 and Shin Kogawa

-First of all, could you tell us what kind of issues you are aware of now, and what you would like to discuss with Shing02 in this dialogue, in your solo and kotto activities over the past four years since leaving jizue?

Shin Kokawa： There are so many things I want to ask Shing02. I often think about the power of music, but I wonder, “How much power does music have over the world?” I often think about the power of music, but what do you think about “how much power does music have over the world?

Shing02: In layman’s terms, music, like food, is something you input. I think it is natural for the same person to have a different sound when the situation or environment changes.

Music, in particular, is invisible. Therefore, I think there is a great deal that is left to the listener’s imagination, and the listener’s emotional and lyrical aspects are managed, or in English, triggered.

Kokawa： Do you feel a little bit like “leading humanity” somewhere?

Shing02：I think that is too grand a theme, but there have been paintings, cartoons, and even animations, not just music, that have gained weight over time, even if the creators were not conscious of this when they were making them.

I think it is possible to find a common theme for all human beings by sharing this experience in any work. It could be hip-hop, dance music, clothes, food, or buildings. That’s how I see it.

-How do you feel about the power of music?

Kokawa： I have been making music without words for a long time, but I am very much influenced by the power of words, and there are many aspects of it that I envy. More than anything else, I have been guided by Shing02’s words, so when I think of his words, I wonder if my life and music are progressing like his words. It is a big indicator for me. I actually have some of Shing02’s lyrics engraved on my body.

-May I show them to you?

Kokugawa： This is “Luv (sic) pt2” and this one is “400. It has a bible-like meaning for me. “I will cut off the long ones. The stakes are high. Appeal through art!” I think I am doing this. When I asked myself if I was doing this, I thought I wasn’t doing enough with jizue, and that was one of the reasons why I left.

Shing02: I’m responsible for that…

Kokawa： I was thinking that would happen as we were talking [laughs].

Shing02: Well, life is all about timing, isn’t it? It is my belief that there is no need to respect harmony by killing yourself.

Kokawa： Yes, that’s true.

-While you strongly feel the power of words, your main battlefield is basically music without words, and I think there must be a dilemma there.

Kokawa： Yes, there is. To put it another way, I would like to sing if I could. But I am not a good singer, so I can’t do that. Instead, I find that putting my ideas on the drums is the most powerful way for me to express myself, so that’s what I do. Of course, there is a lot of energy that can only be expressed with drums.

However, there is also a sense that what I am doing now is becoming less and less necessary, or that I am being pushed to the outside. In the so-called white society, where people try to live their lives without making waves, I am not sure where I can go by refining this intensity of my work, so I would like to hear from Shing02. I would like to hear from Shing02. If you polish your individuality too much, you will end up in the minority. Have you ever worried about the gap between you and the rest of the world?

Shing02： I have lived abroad a lot since I was a child, and I have experienced being a minority there all my life, so it is a theme that is very close to my heart, but I don’t think it is a handicap if I live my life aware that I am a minority.

There are many people in the same situation as me. For example, Asians are really a minority in American society, but on a global level, there are more Asians than Asians. So, as you said before, I am the type of person who thinks that it is better not to worry too much about the gap between myself and the rest of society. I think it’s more about whether or not I am excited every day. What do you think?

Kokawa： It’s really resonating with me right now.

Shing02： In Japan, the most respectful thing to do is not to disturb the other person’s space or pace. I think this is really a uniquely Japanese feeling, and conversely, this feeling is not found in the United States. I personally happened to spend my adolescence in the U.S. and fell in love with hip-pop, and that’s how I got into hip-pop. I think that’s why I’m still in the US all the time.

*OMA is a four-piece hip-hop band based in Manchester that met in college in 2018 and performed together at the “Shing02 & OMA Live showcase” event held at Ebisu LIQUIDROOM in Tokyo on Saturday, March 9.

Surviving Amidst Noise: “The Truly Essential People Will Find You at the Right Time” (Kokawa)

-What do you think about your future activities in terms of Japan and overseas?

Kokawa： Without a language barrier, it is easier for me to go outside the country, so I am always looking overseas. But I still love Japan, so it is hard for me to leave.

Shing02： As far as living in Japan?

Kokawa： When it comes to living in Japan, I can never leave.

Shing02 : In this day and age, there is no need to be particular about that. I happen to have made music with Nujabes, and now there are simultaneous tributes all over the world, so I would like to use that as a starting point, but I have also been making Japanese beats with DJ A-1, so I think there are many ways to showcase my work.

Shing02： I’m now almost 50 years old, and I think one of my strengths is that I have “been doing this for a long time,” so there are many ways to package it, such as looking back on that history or working with younger people. I think one of my strengths is that I have been around for 50 years, so there are many ways to package things. It’s not like I’m forcing myself to plan it.

-The recent performance of “battelcry” with OMA and A-1 at the “Crunchyroll Anime Awards 2024” was also timed to coincide with the 20th anniversary of the TV broadcast of “Samurai Champloo. Shing02: Speaking of cool things.

Shing02: To put it another way, I always want to be where I am needed, wherever that may be. What I am doing is going downhill a bit, the world is being sifted through Corona, and many other things are happening. The fact that I am able to continue in such a situation means that I am able to survive.

I think the challenge is to maintain a good level of tension in your daily life and to be able to continue to do so. Whether you are a writer or a photographer, if you drown yourself in noise that has nothing to do with you, you will lose motivation. Blocking it out is one of the tasks, and if you are not ready when the time comes, you will be late to the party. Conversely, even if you are not doing anything, as long as you are ready, you can go out with a bang. I think it is important to switch between the two. I would like to talk about this at …… today.

Kokawa: By all means!

Shing02: On the flip side, I think it is important not to waste time and energy. For me, if I am wasting my time working and moving, I can’t get ready quickly. There are all kinds of ties, and my self-esteem goes down. So I think it’s one thing to just do nothing. If I think, “I don’t have to do this work,” then I don’t do it anymore. But on the other hand, if I think, “Only I can do this,” I will do anything, no matter how trivial, and I will take on even the smallest job. In fact, I am a jack-of-all-trades, so I do graphics when asked, go to communities to teach, and do anything else. Even if it’s something really small and personal, if I think it would be better to do it myself, I’ll do it.

Kokawa： I totally understand. There is a sense of isolation as a result of refusing to do things that I don’t think are necessary for me, but I can pull together with people who really need me at the right time, so I think that is perfectly fine.

Shing02: That’s the best.

-That’s the best part. -I guess all the people participating in this solo album are people who met at the right time and had a sense of inevitability.

Kokawa： Yes, that’s true. I’m very grateful.

“Kujira” Encapsulates both Fury and Hope: “There are facets you won’t grasp until you’ve hit rock bottom.” (Shing02)

-What was the inspiration for “Kujira,” and how did you and Shing02 communicate with each other?

Kokawa： It was a grand theme, so I immediately thought, “I definitely want Shing02 to do this. I wanted to know how the natural world feels about the human world. I wanted a lyric in Japanese.” That was the first order I gave.

-Why did you make that order?

Kokawa： I have always been interested in the relationship between humans and nature, and I thought that Shing02-san has a very deep philosophy on this subject, so I thought it would be great if I could pull out the most interesting parts of his philosophy.

-I thought it would be great if I could pull out the most interesting parts of that philosophy.

Kokawa： No, I have been thinking about this at the same level for a long time, so I thought it would be very meaningful if I could provide some kind of answer here. I was told, “There are three levels, which one do you choose? We discussed in the car on the way to Inoue’s studio whether we wanted the lyrics to be positive about the existence of human beings, negative or dark, or if we should strike a good balance between the two.

-I heard that you produced the song at Inoue’s studio at jizue in Kyoto.

Shing02: I do a lot of collaboration in my usual environment, but I think it is good to concentrate in the studio, and just like in a session, things happen that can only be done there. Of course I get some time to write the lyrics, but I already feel like a super saiyan and get serious in that time.

Kokawa： When Shing02 asked me earlier, I said “in the middle,” but I regretted it a little later. I wondered why I chose “in the middle. What I am particularly interested in is the anger part, so I wanted to ask what happened when I ordered the anger part.

Shing02: But as you can tell from the song, it ended up being about 80% anger. My job was to create a story that fit the world of the song, and since the song was very dark, the image of a deep sea, or a place where light cannot reach, was the starting point. However, I am a fan of Osamu Tezuka, and in his works, no matter how dark the story is, there is never despair. There is always a little bit of hope. That is completely integrated into my ism. In the case of this story, human beings may be nothing more than a nuisance from the perspective of the natural world. However, if you zoom out and look at the long, long history, what will happen in the future?　I think it is because of this that we are going to move forward with this story.

-That is why we end with the words, “If we continue on this path, there is nothing but discovery.

Shing02： It’s more like that’s the only hope.

Kokawa： When we were talking in the car earlier, Shing02 said, “It would be better if human beings perished already.

Shing02 : I didn’t say it with such a straight face [laughs]. He is not such a scary person. In short, there are some things that you don’t realize until you have fallen to the ground. With capitalism advancing so rapidly, the gap between the rich and the poor is widening, demonstrations are happening all over the world, and the situation is really not good. No one knows what Corona was about this time, but I think it is a time for people to reset themselves and correct their various values. I think there are a great many people who have realized something after all sorts of things have been sifted out. On the other hand, those who have always been stoic up to that point will simply continue on their way.

-What do you think, Kokawa? Do you think it would be better for human beings to perish once?

Kokawa： Actually, I have been thinking that for a long time, so when I heard those words while driving, I thought, “I knew it! I was spurred on by my own accord, but I’ll hold off a bit.

Shing02: Don’t take it too seriously. I don’t really mean it. To put it bluntly, if we consider ourselves as human beings, we deserve some of what we get.

-Lyrically, of course, the track is tied to the arrangement, which is reminiscent of whales and the grandeur of the ocean.

Kokawa： When I wanted to express the world of the song with just the drums, I amplified the sound of the drums a lot. I jumped up the overtones and interesting frequencies to the extreme and filled the space. It was interesting to me because there are not many drummers who do that, and it made the sound stronger, so I thought it would fit with the strength of the message and theme. As for the sound of the track, I worked with Mr. Miya of Hanamaui Studio in Kyoto to create it through repeated experiments.

Another experimental thing this time was that I really like free-tempo drumming, so I wondered how Shing02 would apply his rapping when the tempo was completely eliminated, and experimented with that. I threw it out there thinking, “I don’t care if he doesn’t like it,” but he got over it without difficulty.

-It was the middle part of the song, wasn’t it?

Kokawa： That’s right. The rhythm was not consistent at all in that part. But you did a great job rapping on top of it. I like that part the best because it’s something I’ve never heard anywhere else.

Shing02: Even if the rhythm is not consistent, the tempo of the song as a whole is something, so we just assign it to that tempo, or rather, we try to fit the beginning and end of the story. I would be very happy if our half-experimental approach evoked a variety of images, and I sincerely hope that the final result can be interpreted freely. By the way, how did you record the whale’s cry?

Kokawa： Yasutaka Okada, the bassist of kotto, plays an instrument called a daxophone, and he rubbed it with a bow and added a lot of effectors. He is very particular about the whale’s voice, and he produced a perfect take in one shot during the recording. kott also has a song that weaves a story of the deep sea, so it was very smooth to share that image.

-How do you feel the song turned out?

Kokawa： Perfect.

Shing02： Thanks to Inoue.

Kokawa： Yes, it was. Inoue-kun also made the recording process go very smoothly, and because of our relationship with Shing02, we were able to do it in a relaxed space, which was also a big factor. Even though we experimented so much, we were able to package the message, the story of the song, and the beginning and end of the song beautifully. It probably won’t happen again. That’s what I like about improvisation, but I really think it was a miracle.

https://open.spotify.com/intl-ja/track/5fac8pGg9klKEy4bIV3q06

“Born by Chance. Let’s Dive in for Now

-I’m not sure if it’s a good idea or not, but I’ll try to do it anyway. You mentioned that you were influenced by Tezuka Osamu’s expression, “Even if it is dark, it does not become despair, and there is a little bit of hope somewhere.

Kokawa： I have a strong habit of despair, so I despair on a daily basis. When I turn on the TV, I despair for sure, and when I turn on the radio, I also despair. No matter what I do, I always feel that everyone should be able to live a natural and carefree life, not lying and deceiving each other.

Shing02：I’m going to ask you something in reverse, but don’t you think it’s enough if you can live freely?

Kokawa： Maybe I’m a bit greedy there. Maybe I have a strong desire to get closer to such a world, or maybe I feel that even if I lived that life alone, I would no longer be able to escape it.

Shing02: But that’s true for everyone. It is not limited to you.

Kohkawa： It’s a habit. It must be.

Shing02： For example, if we were born hundreds of years ago, our personalities might not have changed from now, but our circumstances would have changed so much that we would not form the same person. Our values would be too different. If we spoke a different language, we might be formed in a different way. If we didn’t think that we were just born by chance, we wouldn’t be able to do the opposite.

Kokawa： Yes, that’s right.

Shing02： Society may be completely different 100 years from now. Just like writing a song, we have to do our best in the given time and given life. If you abandon the task given to you and complain about it, nothing will get done. If you get too preoccupied, it is the same as thinking too much and not being able to do anything.

My style has always been to try something anyway, no matter how bad it is. I think it is a continuous process where new ideas are born from looking at the rough and tumble things that are created as a result. In life, you learn more from your failures. Conversely, if you don’t fail, you don’t learn anything. In my case, there was a language barrier and many other things, but I thought it was for the sake of learning, so I had to repeat my mistakes. I have been a hip-hop activist, and it is natural for me to have a slightly skewed view of government and capitalism. It is also natural that I am a minority. How to move within that, find something I can still be excited about, and do it with stoicism and greed. That’s all there is to it. On the other hand, what do you feel hope for?

Kokawa： I don’t see much hope in some things, but I do have hope that people will have the means to refine their souls, and that this will increase the number of people like Shing02.

Shing02：As mentioned in “400,” it is not uncommon for younger drummers to look up to you and admire you. Just the fact that he is doing music is amazing, and he may be moved by the content. We should have hope for that, don’t you think?

Kokawa： Yes, that’s right. Come to think of it, I drove from Kyoto to Tokyo today, and I came with that hope in my heart. If one person changes the world, 100 people will change.

-Don’t forget that one person’s change has the power to change a hundred people around him. That’s exactly what the lyric of “400” says.

Shing02： You have continued to make music seriously for a long time, and you are still a great drummer, and this conversation would not have happened without our mutual accumulation. So I think it is important for each of us to continue to do so with pride.

Kokawa: It turned out to be an encouraging episode for me [laughs]. Even though I knew in my head, it was great to hear it directly from someone I respected, and it became another bible for me. It will take me a year or two to digest it, but I will try to live in this world in a more flat and positive way.