Satoko Shibata and Tomoyuki Natsume’s Musical Metamorphosis

Natsume’s Acclaim for Shibata’s Lyricism

-How did you two get to know each other?

Shibata: Probably around 2011 before I made my debut. I think we first met when I went to see Siamese Cats perform at “OPPA-LA” in Enoshima.

Natsume: Oh, that’s right.

Shibata: At that time, I went to see the show with a mutual friend. I remember thinking, “What a scary guy! (Laughs.) At that time, Natsume was already a star for us. Not only the music, but also the lyrics, the way the band was, everything seemed to shine.

Natsume: No, no, no (laughs). After Mr. Shibata made his debut, we often played together at events. We played with each other.

Shibata: Yes, we did. The turnout was bad and the organizer said, “We can’t pay you the promised fee.” I was still a novice, so I said, “Oh, that’s OK! But Natsume responded firmly. I remember Natsume was very firm in his response.

Natsume: That was about 10 years ago (laughs). We’ve never gone out drinking together, but whenever we meet, we always talk about TWICE or K-POP (laughs).

Shibata: Yes, yes (laughs). But this is the first time for us to talk at length in an interview like this, so it’s fresh.

-I remember you analyzing the lyrics of Shibata’s song “I got married” at a talk event titled “10 Years of Songs and Words by Tomoyuki Natsume of Siamese Cats” in 2019. It was also published in CINRA at the time, and was very interesting because it was a sharp commentary from a unique point of view. Did you read that article as well?

Shibata: Of course I read it.

Natsume: I am sorry for analyzing it (laughs). I remember praising it to the hilt.

Shibata: I was really happy. It was refreshing to have a musician read my lyrics in such a way. I was very impressed by the expression, “You’re fast on the run. The point that there is a third party’s point of view in this song is exactly right, and I thought it was as I expected. On the other hand, there were also some interpretations that I had never thought of from this point of view, which was very interesting.

Natsume: Ever since I first heard your song, I have had the impression that your lyrics do not go in a straight line, but rather have various points of view running side by side or branching out, which I feel is very unique. It gives me the impression that the lyrics do not proceed in a straight line, but rather, they run parallel to and branch off from various points of view, and I feel that this is very unique. I can’t do that myself, so I think it’s even more impressive.

-What did you think of Natsume’s lyrics?

Shibata: As I said before, he was a star for me from the very beginning, so my initial feeling of “wow, that’s amazing” came first (laughs). (laughs) Not only Natsume’s words, but basically, I am not at all capable of calmly reading lyrics written by others. I just say, “Wow, that’s great!” or “That’s wonderful! (laughs) Conversely, I don’t really think, “I want to write like this person! I just feel like I am writing my own words.

Natsume’s Response to “Your Favorite Things”: “She Masterfully Embraces the Essence of Satoko Shibata”

-Natsume, what did you think of Shibata’s new album “Your Favorite Things”?

Natsume: It was really interesting. I listened to it three times on different days, and it was interesting each time. The first time I listened to it, I thought, “Oh, you’ve completely mastered the existence of ‘Satoko Shibata. She seems to be having a lot of fun.

Shibata: I’m glad that you do indeed have that feeling. I think Takuro Okada-san’s coming in to produce the sound for this album and our working together with gusto was a big part of the production. This is the first time I’ve had so much fun making this album.

Natsume: I feel a great sense of freedom.

Shibata: I made the album without thinking, “This kind of music wouldn’t suit me, so I’m not going to do it. For example, I no longer think of myself as someone who likes TWICE and my music separately.

Natsume： There are many hooks, but I also freed myself from the idea of “chubi” in Japanese pop songs, and there are many parts that should be called “flow” rather than “song.

Overall, the rhythm and flow are well intertwined, and the whole album is like a picture scroll, like a painting. The lyrics are also enjoyable to listen to by ear, not by eye. It’s like a flash of a picture coming to mind.

Shibata: For the first time, I decided to record the vocals myself, and I think that was a big part of it. In terms of rhythm and voice, I felt that the words were floating around in the previous album. I wondered how I could resolve that. This time, I went into the recording with a strong desire to make the words “sound. So I am very happy with the feedback.

-I heard that your vocal technique has also changed considerably.

Shibata: In the past few years, I had forgotten that I have a small voice. Especially since I started working with a band, I have been thinking that I have to use my voice and get it out from my stomach. My personality also became more and more extroverted along with it (laughs).

(Laughs) But after the last album, I began to think that maybe I was forcing my voice too much. My personality has never been a positive one (laughs).

(laughs) – Your vocal technique has changed a lot since then, hasn’t it, Natsume?

Natsume: Going back to the Shamcats’ “Take Care” mini-album (2015), I started to think consciously about vocalization, and I think it was a big factor in my decision to sing more carefully. Then, when I started my solo project (Summer Eye), I decided once again that I would not be so tense anymore.

I had reached a certain age, and I thought, “I should stop singing with a bang if I have to. When I was thinking about that, I was listening to a lot of bossa nova and Brazilian music, and I started to think that it would be great if I could sing like that, too, because they are so wonderful even though they are all singing in a whisper.

Another big thing was that I wanted to do music that I could continue for the rest of my life. I also thought that I wanted to do music that I could keep doing for the rest of my life. I also thought that it would be a little hard for me to keep disciplining myself and training and working hard to put my voice to the test.

Shibata: Looking back on my own case, I think that such a change in vocal technique is more seamless than a sudden and drastic change. I also have the sense that things have gradually changed as I think about it in my daily life.

Natsume: That’s right.

Shibata’s Response to Summer Eye’s “Daikichi”: “I like the feeling it doesn’t make things too straightforward”

-How did you feel when you listened to Summer Eye’s album?

https://open.spotify.com/intl-ja/album/5B5Ut80zrbE1Xsjo5eEnVf?si=5n-3t3PjRt-Z0KX3-6fneQ

Shibata: It was very good! At first I listened to it while walking around with earphones, but then I thought, “Oh, this is the kind of music I should listen to loudly on speakers,” so I did so again.

I thought, “Natsume-kun, you make club music!” and more than anything, I thought it was stylish, and I was impressed by your technique as a musician. Of course, it is not only about technique, but also the overall quality of the music, arrangement, and lyrics.

Natsume: That makes me happy.

Shibata: I don’t want to mention other artists’ names, but I dare say that the lyrics have a quality similar to Sly (Sly & the Family Stone).

Natsume: Oh, I like Sly’s lyrics, too.

Shibata: The lyrics overlap with the atmosphere of the current era, and I feel the attitude of “I have to do my best to survive,” but they also depict sadness and love, which I think is great. I also feel that way when I listen to Sly. It also captures the feeling of “after all, people can’t just do their best …….” I think that’s what Sly is about.

It’s also nice that the song doesn’t make you grasp things in a straightforward manner. I feel that when I talk to Natsume.

Natsume: That’s probably just a quirk. Actually, I always try to choose the easiest way to express myself, but I understand that I end up giving that impression.

For a while I had some trouble with that, and I felt that I wanted to communicate more straightforwardly, but recently I’ve come to think that, well, that’s part of my personality, and that I should just throw a straight ball in my own way.

Shibata: Well, when I hear that, the lyrics sound even more interesting.

Natsume: But from my point of view, I also feel a great strength in you, Mr. Shibata. When you are doing this kind of work and spending a lazy day with no plans, you may feel uneasy and wonder if you are doing the right thing. I asked Mr. Shibata before, “Don’t you ever feel that way? He immediately answered, “No, I don’t.” Shibata: What kind of a dangerous guy are you?

Shibata: You sound like a dangerous guy (laughs). But I am feeling a certain amount of anxiety now. I started a savings NISA the other day, too.

Natsume: (laughs).

Shibata: But even though I am vaguely anxious about the future, I am trying to overcome my worries about my house, family, and daily life by writing songs, which I think is pretty bad.

Music has become like a tool to get over things in my life. So, if music were to disappear, it would be a really bad thing. It was the same with Corona, and our dependence on it is growing rapidly.

Natsume: That is exactly how I feel about the new album. I have the impression that making the album itself has become a prescription.

Shibata: So now all I can think of is, “Music, please don’t abandon me. If music were to be taken away from me, it might be more painful than if my life were to end. In the past, I would have taken the relationship more lightly.

Natsume: There are times when the rate of synchronization with the music I am making increases abnormally. In that sense, this album is not just you “getting on with ‘Satoko Shibata,'” as I said earlier, but rather “becoming one with the songs.

Their Songwriting Approach: “Despite its Simplicity, Direct Expression actually Captivates the Greatest Mysteries.”

-Let’s focus more on the lyrics from here. Let’s start with you, Natsume-san. As you mentioned in the first half of the interview, I have the impression that the lyrics in Summer Eye are simpler than those in the band’s past. Was there a change in your mindset at the level of specific expression as well?

Natsume： Yes, In the past, for example, if I wanted to sing about a tangerine, I would describe it as “round, orange, and sour,” but recently I think it is better to say “tangerine” in a single word.

I feel that a song is complete when it is full of both sound and meaning. I try to use metaphors only when the occasion calls for it, and I feel more inclined to simply say what can be easily said.

-I think that is similar to your lyrics. I feel that your lyrics are very direct in their expression, but at the same time, you don’t just say things as they are in the words, but you sing with changes of perspective and deviations, and I get the sense that the meaning that is not explicitly expressed between the words seeps through.

Natsume: Yes, yes. I understand.

-I am very curious to know how you came up with such a string of words.

Shibata: I think it is probably because I originally studied visual arts. I learned various techniques such as collage, cut-up, montage, etc. Thanks to what I learned, I understood that there are infinite possibilities in visual expression, even if we are shooting the same thing.

You can connect anything if you want to. I think the surprise I gained from this experience has influenced the shift in perspective in my lyrics and the way I combine the words themselves, and in fact, I have been challenging myself in this way. Direct words may seem simple, but I think they are actually the most mysterious expressions. The magnitude of what those words contain is unfathomable.

Natsume: I understand that.

Shibata: I have always been a person who cannot stop anthropomorphizing. It is not an animistic idea that “everything has a soul like a human being,” but I tend to think of things in terms of human beings.

Recently, however, I have come to think that this is not enough. In other words, it seems that we have a deep understanding of nature and other non-human things, but in fact we have too much respect for the concept of “human,” or more specifically, I think we are working in an irreverent way with a kind of pride in being human.

Human beings have many good qualities, but there are also many things that can’t be helped. Looking at the situation in the world today, there are many things that can only be described as harmful, rather than helpless.

Natsume: We have been repeating the same mistakes for thousands of years. It’s getting to be a great story.

Shibata: I think it is good to describe things in a mathematical or natural scientific way. For example, “The sun is big and round. But I think you have to think carefully before using expressions like, “It’s as if the wind is talking to me.

Natsume: “Don’t anthropomorphize flowers, birds, wind, and the moon based on easy human assumptions! (laughs).

Shibata: Yes. Don’t be sentimental about it for the sake of human convenience! (laughs). (laughs). But even now, I still use such expressions.

Natsume: On the contrary, even if you use seemingly dry language, you can make interesting lyrics by using expressions that are cut and split to change the perspective, such as looking through a microscope or a telescope.

Shibata: Yes, yes. That’s why I think it’s most interesting not to play with metaphors, but to just pile on the direct expressions.

Natsume: I totally understand.

Shibata: When you write a lot of lyrics, you tend to develop a habit. I think about this so that I don’t drown in it. However, it’s not so much that I have a technical certainty, but rather that I just go with my intuition (laughs).

Natsume: But even though it is based on intuition, there comes a time when you are convinced that it is the right time, right?

Shibata: Yes. When you make something while singing, what started out as a disjointed piece of music somehow comes to make sense. This was especially true for this piece. Even in places where I thought, “Maybe this part doesn’t fit the rhythm,” if I had the guts and openness to say, “I’m going to make it fit! I found that if I had the guts and determination to “let it ride,” I could get on with it.

In the past, if there was a part where I thought, “This part doesn’t fit well,” I would replace it with another word, but recently I have come to think, “I really need this word, so I’ll just have to put my heart into it and use my expressive ability in the song! I’ve come to think, “I really need this word, so I’m going to have to put my heart into it and use the expressive power of song!

-What you mean by “doing something with the song” is to sing a convincing song, even if it deviates from the notes or musical score you had originally intended.

Shibata: Yes, that’s right.

Natsume: This reminded me of a cover version of “500 Miles” by Kiyoshiro Imawano. It is a famous Peter, Paul & Marie version of the song, but Seishiro translated it into Japanese and sang it.

https://open.spotify.com/intl-ja/track/0xHARJa3Cqa8uOtDpfaegg?si=38cd9c9fd0d9475f

Natsume： To be frank, the song’s score and groove are different from the original, but I felt that it was more like a “song” by far. That is a big hint for me when I write my own songs, and I think you may be doing exactly the same thing when you sing your own songs.

Shibata: That may be so. But I don’t do it because I understand phonology, and I think I need to study, and I really want to talk about this kind of thing with many people!

Shibata’s Lyrics: Creating a Sense of Familiarity Despite Unique Experiences

-I’m going to change the subject a little. Personally, I think this is a point common to both of your lyrics. I feel that there is a perfect balance between the nuance of a singer-songwriter who projects her own “reality” and the sense that she is telling a story from a bird’s eye view, like a screenwriter. To what extent do you keep this in mind when writing lyrics?

Shibata: Well, when you say it like that, I think I might be doing it myself, but (whispering) I might be doing that part pretty much at random.

-Both of you have covered songs by Masashi Sada, right? (Author’s note: Shibata covered “Azayakana Tabibito,” while Natsume covered “Amayadori”). Do you ever feel inclined to write lyrics with such dense thematic content?”

Shibata: I think Sada-san is extremely talented, but I don’t have confidence in my ability to create such a short story-like world in my songs. I am not really aware that I am good at storytelling.

Natsume: I don’t either.

Shibata: I might be able to create a “story,” but I think a “story” is something bigger and freer than a “story.

-I think a “story” is something bigger and freer than a “tale.”

Shibata: Yes, that’s right.

Natsume: I totally understand. I may be making a great effort not to fall into “deep stories. When you suddenly realize it, lyrics tend to become “deep stories.

Shibata: I don’t think “creating a story” is just about creating a beginning, middle, and end. When I read novels by professional writers, they often end and end in such strange places that the beginning, middle, and end don’t work. But the result is a very rich story.

-I am sure that there are many people who project their own image onto your lyrics or find some kind of narrative in them.

Natsume: Your songs are full of lines that I can understand, even though I have never actually experienced something similar. In the song “Regret,” he says, “Oh, ever since I saw you swinging at the batting center, I’ve actually wanted to hug you. (laughs).

The point is that the word “actually” is attached to it, meaning that this person did not directly tell the other person about it. It was just something that was on his/her mind. That’s what I was thinking about in my heart, and I thought, “I totally understand” (laughs). I’m possessed by the person in the lyrics, or rather, I’m being possessed by the person in the lyrics. ……I remember memories that shouldn’t exist at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q1iLrWULMk

Shibata: That’s very strange. That makes me happy.

Sense of Endearment in Natsume’s Songs

Natsume: “Are you trying to tell a story through your songs? I think I have succeeded if I have created a story format and if the audience can grasp the characters in the story. There are dramas that run for dozens of episodes, but the characters are not drawn at all.

On the other hand, there are films like Aki Kaurismäki’s or Hong Sang-soo’s that don’t have a flashy beginning and end, but the characters are so well-developed that you want to meet them and talk to them. I hope to create a 3-minute pops version of that kind of thing.

-I think that’s exactly the kind of character that often appears in your songs. It’s kind of like you can’t help but love the characters depicted in your songs.

Shibata: I understand! I can really feel the love in your songs. Your sincerity toward people is amazing and gentle.

Natsume: I depict a lot of foolish people (laughs). But that is what makes them more human, isn’t it?

Shibata: I think that must be the true heart.

Natsume: When I decided to go solo, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to portray. To be honest, as long as everyone was happy and healthy, that was all that mattered. I thought it would be interesting to create a character who is foolish and pathetic.

–A track like ‘Daikichi’ concludes with the nonsensical line “She was really hot,” yet there’s a profound sense of endearment embedded within.

https://open.spotify.com/intl-ja/track/35HvM5JtnJy8pZXE4Z3id9?si=fcf4ce4ab76344f9

Shibata: Really. I think it’s cool that people can think like that.

Natsume: In the end, I want to be like Kame-Sen’nin from “Dragon Ball. I want to be like that guy who gets nosebleeds when he sees panties even when he is an old man. When I talk about this kind of thing, most people will say, “What is he talking about?

I am also aware of the fact that I am at variance with modern values, but I believe that the love of humanity is also present in such things. How can I reconcile that with sincerity? That is my theme, and I am thinking about it seriously.

Shibata: I think that the club music-like atmosphere of the current Summer Eye fits well with that kind of atmosphere.

Natsume: I’m glad to hear that. Old house and dance music records used to just repeat simple phrases like “Love is something” all the time, didn’t they? When you are dancing while moving your body in a trancey state, if a simple phrase is thrown in, you instantly feel like you understand it as it travels through your body.

When you get to that state, you don’t have to sing about specific episodes as if they were stories. I want to bet on that possibility.

For both Shibata as the Creator and the Audience, “Your Favorite Thing” embodies a sort of ‘festival’

-Your album “Your Favorite Things” also has a stronger dance music element, doesn’t it?

Shibata: Yes, it does. I feel that I am becoming more sensitive to the joy of music that I can feel with my body. I am still a little embarrassed to dance in clubs, but I think that dancing to music is one of the most powerful joys among all human activities. When shit happens in my personal life, I have the feeling of getting into the joy of rhythm even more, as if in inverse proportion.

Natsume: I thought this album was getting into a zone that could be called “hedonistic,” and seriously, Parliament’s live album “Live! P Funk Earth Tour” (1977). In other words, I thought that we were at the entrance to a dangerous zone, or that you finally got a ticket to Wonderland.

Shibata: (laughs). For the past six or seven years, I have managed to live my life as an adult in a spirit of harmony and symbiosis, not disappointing those around me or making my parents cry, but I have reconfirmed that there are still many contradictions, such as hurting each other. I realized that I have been suppressing my inner urge for pleasure, or more specifically, my urge for anti-morality, in an irrational way.

The first thing that comes to my mind is that it would be better if I did not have to hide them from the public. I’m suddenly enjoying playing music so much that I’m a little scared. Music is the best! I’m in a state of explosive excitement. I’m exploding with the feeling of “Music is the best!

Natsume: I love it. I think this album is really swirling with such feelings.

Shibata: However, when I have to love people at the same time as having such a joyful feeling, I am also calmly thinking to myself, “How can I live in this society in the future? I am afraid that I will be so absorbed in the joy of music that I will not be able to take responsibility for loving the people around me. That’s why I think that the only way for me to do that is to make music!　That’s why I feel like I have no other choice but to make music!

Natsume: I feel that this album provides a space where anyone can come in and enter such a dangerous zone.

-I think “Your Favorite Things” may be a kind of festival for both you, the creator, and the listeners. Dancing is also essential to festivals, in the sense that it exists as an extraordinary event that is a safety valve for the everyday.

Shibata: Well, you are really right. I think they are appeasing something raging with music.

Natsume: It’s a really bad album when you think about it like that (laughs). Your Favorite Things” as a strange festival. It’s great.